And to that I rejoin:-O my father,did you not wish me to live as happily as possible?And yet you also never ceased telling me that Ishould live as justly as possible.Now,here the giver of the rule,whether he be legislator or father,will be in a dilemma,and will in vain endeavour to be consistent with himself.But if he were to declare that the justest life is also the happiest,every one hearing him would enquire,if I am not mistaken,what is that good and noble principle in life which the law approves,and which is superior to pleasure.For what good can the just man have which is separated from pleasure?Shall we say that glory and fame,coming from Gods and men,though good and noble,are nevertheless unpleasant,and infamy pleasant?Certainly not,sweet legislator.Or shall we say that the not-doing of wrong and there being no wrong done is good and honourable,although there is no pleasure in it,and that the doing wrong is pleasant,but evil and base?
Cle.Impossible.
Ath.The view which identifies the pleasant and the pleasant and the just and the good and the noble has an excellent moral and religious tendency.And the opposite view is most at variance with the designs of the legislator,and is,in his opinion,infamous;for no one,if he can help,will be persuaded to do that which gives him more pain than pleasure.But as distant prospects are apt to make us dizzy,especially in childhood,the legislator will try to purge away the darkness and exhibit the truth;he will persuade the citizens,in some way or other,by customs and praises and words,that just and unjust are shadows only,and that injustice,which seems opposed to justice,when contemplated by the unjust and evil man appears pleasant and the just most unpleasant;but that from the just man's point of view,the very opposite is the appearance of both of them.
Cle.True.
Ath.And which may be supposed to be the truer judgment-that of the inferior or of the better soul?
Cle.Surely,that of the better soul.
Ath.Then the unjust life must not only be more base and depraved,but also more unpleasant than the just and holy life?
Cle.That seems to be implied in the present argument.
Ath.And even supposing this were otherwise,and not as the argument has proven,still the lawgiver,who is worth anything,if he ever ventures to tell a lie to the young for their good,could not invent a more useful lie than this,or one which will have a better effect in ****** them do what is right,not on compulsion but voluntarily.
Cle.Truth,Stranger,is a noble thing and a lasting,but a thing of which men are hard to be persuaded.
Ath.And yet the story of the Sidonian Cadmus,which is so improbable,has been readily believed,and also innumerable other tales.
Cle.What is that story?
Ath.The story of armed men springing up after the sowing of teeth,which the legislator may take as a proof that he can persuade the minds of the young of anything;so that he has only to reflect and find out what belief will be of the greatest public advantage,and then use all his efforts to make the whole community utter one and the same word in their songs and tales and discourses all their life long.
But if you do not agree with me,there is no reason why you should not argue on the other side.
Cle.I do not see that any argument can fairly be raised by either of us against what you are now saying.
Ath.The next suggestion which I have to offer is,that all our three choruses shall sing to the young and tender souls of children,reciting in their strains all the noble thoughts of which we have already spoken,or are about to speak;and the sum of them shall be,that the life which is by the Gods deemed to be the happiest is also the best;-we shall affirm this to be a most certain truth;and the minds of our young disciples will be more likely to receive these words of ours than any others which we might address to them.
Cle.I assent to what you say.
Ath.First will enter in their natural order the sacred choir composed of children,which is to sing lustily the heaven-taught lay to the whole city.Next will follow the choir of young men under the age of thirty,who will call upon the God Paean to testify to the truth of their words,and will pray him to be gracious to the youth and to turn their hearts.Thirdly,the choir of elder men,who are from thirty to sixty years of age,will also sing.There remain those who are too old to sing,and they will tell stories,illustrating the same virtues,as with the voice of an oracle.
Cle.Who are those who compose the third choir,Stranger?for I do not clearly understand what you mean to say about them.
Ath.And yet almost all that I have been saying has said with a view to them.
Cle.Will you try to be a little plainer?
Ath.I was speaking at the commencement of our discourse,as you will remember,of the fiery nature of young creatures:I said that they were unable to keep quiet either in limb or voice,and that they called out and jumped about in a disorderly manner;and that no other animal attained to any perception of order,but man only.Now the order of motion is called rhythm,and the order of the voice,in which high and low are duly mingled,is called harmony;and both together are termed choric song.And I said that the Gods had pity on us,and gave us Apollo and the Muses to be our playfellows and leaders in the dance;and Dionysus,as I dare say that you will remember,was the third.
Cle.I quite remember.
Ath.Thus far I have spoken of the chorus of Apollo and the Muses,and I have still to speak of the remaining chorus,which is that of Dionysus.
Cle.How is that arranged?There is something strange,at any rate on first hearing,in a Dionysiac chorus of old men,if you really mean that those who are above thirty,and may be fifty,or from fifty to sixty years of age,are to dance in his honour.
Ath.Very true;and therefore it must be shown that there is good reason for the proposal.
Cle.Certainly.
