Hurun: As an outsider, I just want to simplify what at first appears to be complicated. Our job doesn’t involve any deep analysis, we simply rank a businessman based on his publicly known wealth. Of course, I am not Chinese, but my experience in producing lists in China extends back to a time when the now popular universities rankings had yet to appear. All this adds to our independency, and authority, and means that Chinese businessmen are more likely to tell us the truth.
NewsChina: What is your relationship like with these businessmen?
Hurun: It’s difficult to know, as many of them are still very conservative, or weary of saying too much, which makes it difficult to draw any real information from them. Take a businessman in Jilin Province, northeast China, as an example. He talked about why he wanted to give up his position at the local government offices and start a private business, and why he made the decision to change at that specific time. He also told about his relations with his wife, and his impression of the overall environment at that time. Although I felt he was open during our conversation, even now I cannot tell whether he was telling the truth.
Many people are not willing to talk about how they acquired their “first bucket of gold.” China changes so quickly – if you judge something without placing it in a historical context, it’s easy to see how that incident may be viewed as bad. That’s why many businessmen aren’t willing to talk about their past in detail, or worse, not to touch upon it at all.
NewsChina: Since you felt they were open with you, why not ask them more questions to clarify your doubts?
Hurun: It is difficult to ask very searching questions. In addition, is it necessary to probe to the core? Not really.
NewsChina: Do you make an effort to identify those who may seek to conceal their wealth?
Hurun: No, we’re not very active in this regard. Some rich people intentionally keep their wealth secret from the public, while some may not have declared it for tax reasons. Many bankers I came across told me that I have missed a lot of truly rich people with the list, and many entrepreneurs said to me, “you have put me on the list, but there are much richer people than me.” However, they refused to let me know who those richer people are.
NewsChina: Some people think you add an entrepreneur onto your list if you happen to see that same entrepreneur meeting with a senior political leader or attending an influential event. Is there any truth in this?
Hurun: Yes, that was how we spotted the really rich when we first began compiling the list. It remains the simplest means of identifying potential rich people in China.
NewsChina: Some reports have suggested that as many as 90 percent of China’s richest people are relatives of government officials, but in the Hurun Report, there are only a few. What’s your view on this?
Hurun: This is also a topic often discussed abroad. First, you need to be aware that the actual number might be less than imagined. Second, we can only rely on public information to complete our list. If somebody uses various clandestine means to keep his wealth secret, in the end we have to just let it be.
NewsChina: I noticed that you have taken an interest in Chinese politics, especially the 16th CPC National Congress (which was held in 2002 and emphasized that personal property is protected by law).
Hurun: The 16th CPC National Congress marked a turning point for Chinese entrepreneurs. Before this, many entrepreneurs had to keep a low profile in China and were afraid to make their wealth publicly known. A Shenzhen-based entrepreneur was reluctant to be put into contact with us, but after the Congress, he thought “it was time to make contact.” I don’t know what led to such changes, but the results are promising. The Chinese President Hu Jintao paid a visit to the US in 2006, yet his first official dinner on US soil was at Bill Gates’ home. The fact that Hu had dinner with Gates in public was a strong message that China would conscientiously accept the concept of private entrepreneurs and support their development.
NewsChina: You believed that Hu’s visit to Gates’ house was a positive political signal to China’s economy?
Hurun: Undoubtedly, there was a business purpose behind their meeting, but, I don’t care about that. I’m more concerned with the surface phenomenon - I believe it was a good thing, and many entrepreneurs agree. During last years’ Beijing Olympic Opening Ceremony, I also observed that it was the former Chinese gymnast Li Ning that lit the Olympic torch. I think Li Ning’s success as a businessman was a reason behind this great honor.
NewsChina: At the time you worked on the first China Rich List in 1999, did you think that compiling the report would be your future career?
Hurun: I was 29 years old when I did the first report and I intended to do the work for three or five years. If I failed, I could still go back to being an accountant. At that time, I just believed it was an interesting and worthwhile thing to do, since the State-owned listed companies accounted for less than 1 percent of the total listed companies in the US and Great Britain, but when it came to China in 1999, it was more than 60 percent. Although China was different from the US or UK, there remained a considerable possibility that the private economy would develop to equal the state economy. Put simply, I strongly believed in China’s growth potential.
